One thing I have wondered is if lacto-ovo vegetarians eat more eggs and dairy products than the average meat-eater, because they replace the meat with other animal products. I'm sure this varies from individual to individual, and is, thus, hard to calculate.
I encourage anyone adopting a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet to make sure that meat is replaced by beans, seitan, tofu, and other plant foods, keeping the amount of eggs and dairy the same as before - or, even better, lower - if they want to meet or exceed the numbers mentioned. I do not know if vegetarians tend to eat more eggs and dairy than meat-eaters. If there is credible data available on it from any recent scientific polls, it will be easy to incorporate it in the formula I use. Interesting blog!
I'd like to mention that these numbers are VERY conservative. These numbers do not include: 1. Foer's "Eating Animals" but not the this source of his numbers therein. One question - you're talking just about vegetarians in the U. Just want to make sure of that. Yes, Kenny, I am only considering the US in my analysis. I am sure the worldwide numbers would be different.
My daughter is almost two and she doesn't like meat at all! Thank you so much I love it! What about vegans? No chickens or cows suffering - that's saving animals too.
I'd like to see those numbers, just saying. I think the numbers are way off, if my calculations are right. Even if you were eating small animals like doves or shrimp, that is still to much of a number. I love meat, but I eat steaks once or twice a week, I eat a burger every other day or so, and snacks throughout the day. I don't think any human being consumes as much meat as this posts likes to say.
Thank you for this, I really enjoyed reading! Sometimes I feel disheartened and feel like I'm not even making an impact by refraining from eating animal products, this really helped to quantify things. Thank you for writing this.
However, I didn't cite your page as my source because of the title - the people with whom I'm debating would have immediately dismissed the information as propaganda. In retrospect, I should have asked for your permission first.
I did forward the link for your page to another vegan. Isn't the number of animals saved offset to some degree by the number of animals killed to support the increased intake of plant-based foods? This is the oft-raised retort that vegans still kill animals incidentally through harvesting plants. So meat-eater kills X animals directly and indirectly in raising feed and Y animals indirectly. It would seem your estimate while conservative for other reasons is inflated by ignoring incidental kills.
So I shouldn't say your number is inflated; it just doesn't account for incidental kills when it probably should at least talk about it. Thank you for this article. I had been thinking recently about the number of animals saved by going vegetarian or vegan. We always hear the number 95 and I was thinking how that number would be even greater if the person was a big eater. I, myself, began my vegan journey pushing lbs. Given how much I and my husband would eat in one sitting, I imagine we might be saving almost twice the number of the average person which one day we hope will balance that high number we ate if only karmically.
Thanks for the honest effort, Harish. I don't like including shellfish, because that, I think, just distracts from the issue of suffering. Although not "vegan," eating a clam is very much like eating a plant. And eating "vegan" foods like wet-grown rice kills plenty of vertebrates. Many vegans I know don't need ego help; they cut themselves off from the public and thus hurt animals with their sanctimony and moralizing. None of us are perfect, and we can all improve -- we can all do more for the animals.
But there are many other environmental tragedies that vegetarians are commiting due to lifestyle choices. Theoretically I could walk to the farm where my steak was raised so very little transport pollution, whilst your bananas and other tropical fruits on which you depend, currently organic or not involve vast fossil fuel use, and their organicness if any is a result of MASS poison kill-offs of entire islands of most small creatures.
For instance St. Lucia is almost entirely devoid of life smaller than a cat due to historic poisoning. No birds, butterflies, etc. On top of that meat is almost all mechanically harvested corn grain etc whilst your pretty fruit and vegetables involve flying exploited minorities thousands of miles from their countries to hand pick ever thing you put in your mouth If you eat plants to be healthy, so be it, but if you are in any way saving animals This weekend I was able to look through your data and it was very interesting for me to see how someone else was approaching the same problem.
It is obvious that much hard work has gone into the ADC analysis. A difference between my post and the ADC analysis is that my post comes up with finfish and the ADC analysis comes up with a much smaller Each pound of, say, farmed salmon we eat is grown using at least 8 smaller fish 1. This multiplicative factor significantly expands the number of fish we kill for our food and should be applied to all of the aquaculture products we eat.
If these two facts are accommodated into the ADC analysis, the numbers of finfish estimated by the ADC analysis and this post would get much closer. Anna, thank you for sharing the data from this post.
It is perfectly fine if you did not link to it. I completely understand your concern re: propaganda. CAW, thank you for your comment. I had received the same feedback privately from others as well. Michael, the number of fish we kill for our food is not the same as the number of fish that pass through our lips.
This doesn't answer the question of whether lacto-ovo vegetarians eat MORE eggs and dairy than non-vegetarians, but it is interesting further reading for anyone who hasn't seen it:. It lays out the animal foods that kill the most animals per calorie, and the least. It does not include all animal products, such as fish, goat, lamb, etc. In summary, eating chickens and eggs kills the most animals per calorie, of those foods being considered; dairy kills the least. Hi Tracye, thanks for the link.
The article on the Measure of Doubt site compares eggs to beef and then inexplicably jumps to the conclusion that a vegetarian kills more animals than a meat-eater. It lists but conveniently ignores the chicken eaten by meat-eaters and its very high death count per calorie. But yes, it is certainly possible for a vegetarian to kill more animals than a typical meat-eater by eating an insane number of eggs. This is terrific stuff. I once read something about it taking lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of meat or something along those lines; forgive my laziness here.
Thanks so much for this. I appreciate how comprehensive it is, and the fact that you include sea creatures. As a vegan since and a vegetarian since I hadn't really thought of it in terms of saving lives. I had hoped that my commitment reduced suffering and environmental damage, but I had never researched any statistics.
Also, I appreciate your inclusion of the effects of those who have reduced their consumption of animals flesh. None of my friends are vegan and only one is a vegetarian, but many now eat animals much less than they used to. I completely disagree with the comment made by Michael. Shellfish are animals and as such have rudimentary nervous systems. Therefore they do experience pain. Being boiled alive must cause them pain. And to make a sweeping claim all that vegans uniformly "cut themselves off from the public and thus hurt animals with their sanctimony and moralizing" is a ludicrous, untrue, and disrespectful thing to say.
Hi Harry, very nice article! One more thing to add to the equation pops into my mind: grass fed animals. What percentage of cows in the US are grazing on pasture lands? What would grazing change in the numbers above i suppose it would increase the number of wild animals saved by vegetarians, and decrease the number for vegans - but by how much? I thought about this some time ago, but never got myself to analyze that thoroughly.
IMO, it's an interesting thing to consider. In short, vegan beats local - but why not do both? Nearly all meat comes from factory farms which use tremendous amounts of water, fuel, and land indirectly, for feedcrops. Grazing displaces native wildlife, and ranchers, with the aid of the US government, kill even mre wildlife. At least the animals killed by plows a figure which is largely unknown might be of any age and had a normal life up until then. Again, carnists also eat vegetables and indirectly eat most of the grains in the developed world.
Slaughterhouse workers are similarly exploited, and it is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country. Recent studies also show that the mere presence of slaughterhouses drives up the crime rate in surronding areas. So there are lots of potentially complicatng factors. Harish has done a very thorough job investigating the core numbers. I doubt he has "forgotten" anything but chose to focus on central factors since that in itself is quite complicated and lengthy. If we are going to look at additional factors, let's not cherry-pick only the ones that support our lifestyle.
If we're concerned about harming animals, let's first stop intentionally harming them, and then let's work on ways to minimize our unintentional impacts, e. No doubt, if we put our minds to it, we can make progress in that area, too. But we can stop raising animals just to kill them immediately. Thank you, Gary, for the very comprehensive comment. It is a great response to some of the questions posed and arguments made in defense of eating meat.
Love your site. I also love animals and I have a site that has current issues that need signatures, and a lot of education for people about animals. I love it if you would check it out and pass it on! Michael - there are scientific studies showing that not only do fish feel pain, but it's also likely that prawns, shrimp, and other decapod crustaceans also feel pain - or something similar, so I think many would agree they should remain in this type of calculation.
I'm less familiar with similar work with bivalve molluscs. Very many animals die from dairy and egg farms each year so you can't use the amount of animals that die for "food". Your numbers do apply to vegans though. Daniel, I suppose you meant to write "vegetarians" instead of "vegans"? Yes, these are numbers calculated for vegetarians, not vegans because I do not take into consideration eggs and dairy in this post. But, vegans are vegetarians too, so these numbers do apply to vegans as well just that a more accurate number for vegans will be slightly larger.
Thanks for crunching these numbers. Do you think you'd be calculating how many animals eating vegan not living vegan would save? Bettina, it's great that you are trying out a vegan lunchbox month!
A vegan reduces the suffering of animals by quite a bit more than a vegetarian because egg-laying hens probably endure more prolonged and intense suffering than most farmed animals. But, the number of additional animals saved by a vegan is small likely less than 2 on top of the or so animals already saved by going vegetarian. These calculations, however, do not take into account less direct impact on the animals such as wild animals killed in producing grain for the animals. Hi, it's a great analysis, i especially liked the fact that you tried to keep it conservative, it's better to know the minimum in this case rather than going the advertising route and saying that vegan saves "up to" some number.
Great job. Also i would like to thank you for keeping all the troll posts here, like the people who argue that vegans don't care about environmental issues or that eating some animals is like eating a plant.
The stupidity our their arguments actually go to further our goals. Keep up the great work. Hi Harish. Great article. Well done for all your hard work in reasearching the numbers. My only question is in relation to a comment you made Wouldn't the lives of all the male calves from the dairy industry make a bigger difference between vegetarian and vegan than you suggest?
Dairy breeds are mostly unsuitable for the beef market so these are just 'by-product deaths' which vegetarians cause by supporting the dairy industry but vegans don't. The number of male dairy calves killed each year must surely be considerable?
Neal, Here is a rough calculation to answer your question. There are no more than 10 million dairy cows in the US.
If each of them produced a veal calf each year, the total number of calves killed is 10 million. Assuming each cow is milked for an average of five years, the total number of cows killed per year is 2 million. So, dairy causes the death of up to 12 million animals per year. With over million people in the US, that is less than 0.
Using the analysis method used in this post, a person not eating dairy saves at most about 0. Dion J asked So a vegetarian saves animals per year? Where exactly are these saved animals kept? They are not 'kept' anywhere. They're saved from being forced into the world to start with, not made to live a miserable life and finally not made to die against the consciouse will to live that they have developed by that time.
I think you have over simplified this, and perhaps even made a mistake in your choice of dialect. You are not 'saving' animals, you are simply not eating them. Until you are actively making a difference in the life of an individual, then stop tooting your horn and puffing your chest. I'm a vegetarian and I would never say that refusing to eat meat is saving an animal. How about you volunteer at an animal shelter? Become a foster parent to a rescue dog. Your 'activism' is lazy and pretentious.
Whoah man. The meat industry does not magically stop killing as many cows just because you're not eating it. Don't say it is supply and demand, because companies like McDonald's make sure that isn't a problem. Get real. Acting like an overly emotional extremist isn't going to convince intelligent people to stop eating meat.
This page, and the person that gathered this information, is not on a mission to harm anyone or anything. Do you think that you are so brilliant that you are the only one who realizes what goes on with the horrific animal farming that takes place in this world? Guess what? You are not. As far as activism We could be out all day, everyday taking steps to better the lives of the creatures that we inhabit this Earth with. As far as, "acting like an overly emotional extremist" Especially to the small percentage of people who actually do care.
What a miserable being you must be to emit such hate and negativity. One can only imagine how nasty a person to be around you truly are if your unpleasantness is so apparent from just a comment on a post. Besides the animals people are saved! If at least 5 people could eat from the feed necessary to produce one portion of meat, then every time I did not put meat on my plate I was able to invite 5 other people to eat who would otherwise have had their last meal.
I find your numbers to be totally abstract and not at all placed in the context of the way the killing-of-animals industry actually works.
I myself do not understand this fully, but it seems obvious to me that there has to be some kind of tipping point in unsold 'animal portions', BEFORE such a vast industry would respond AT ALL--ie: start to raise less animals for slaughter, or catch less fish--resulting in the saving of animal lives. Unless you can present evidence that such a 'tipping point' has been reached, it is not realistic to say that being a vegetarian or vegan has had ANY effect on the killing of animals--i.
And it would have to be monitored for effectiveness. Then your numbers would be more than abstract arithmetic calculations without any connection to reality and how the system works. In reply to Kim: Calling Amy a bitch and saying she is negative because she refutes this hypothesis, insults both animals a bitch is a female dog and women what would you call a man who made the same point--even in the same way?
Certainly not a bitch--which shows how sexist you are being. It is an important point and I'd like to see the writer of the blog give it a serious response. Fran: Vegetarians are a large enough group that they are collectively beyond the tipping point where the meat industry would notice the reduced demand. This reduced demand has actually reduced production see here.
This is the reason that the industry sometimes vigorously fights efforts like the Meatless Monday campaigns. The meat industry does react to reduced demand and the only debate is about the extent to which it does react and how quickly it is able to react. This depends on the type of animal product.
It is hard for the dairy industry to react quickly to reduced demand and kill fewer animals because cows are milked for five years but it is much easier for the chicken industry which processes new chickens every forty-five days. In general, reduced demand does reduce production but not by the same amount as the reduction in demand.
Thank you Harish for taking the time to research the numbers and lay them out so well here. The calculation is inherently very complex and you did the best job one could do without over complicating it - ie. It's an excellent overview, well thought out. I've been looking for such a calculation. Harish - I was looking for a calculation like this because I'm writing a thesis for my Master's in Humane Education. So thank you very much for your hard work. I've been vegan since June and I have to believe that a certain amount of animals land and water; I never ate birds who fly have been saved or not born because of my commitment.
And unlike the comment made above that vegans and vegetarians demand pretty food, I just want food that's not laced with pesticides or GMOs as I'm sure most, if not all, of us want. These calculations are rough and could be improved—in particular, we used a lot of numbers from US or world sources when equivalent statistics may be available for the UK specifically.
Allison studied mathematics at Carleton College and Northwestern University before joining ACE to help build its research program in their role as Director of Research from — Most recently, Allison joined ACE's Board of Directors, and is currently training to become a physical therapist assistant.
Thank you for your Blog post, I really enjoyed it. Animal products like oils, fats, eggs, milk products etc. What happens to the male chicks on an egg farm? You might be interested in our general page about the effects of diet choices on animals , which mostly addresses the situation in the US.
In particular, there are some comparisons there between the use of animals for meat and for other purposes. The reality is that so many more animals are used for meat than for dairy and eggs even counting male chicks that vegetarians would need to eat absurd amounts of animal products to counteract the effects of stopping eating meat, while diet studies have mostly found they eat similar amounts of dairy and eggs as non-vegetarians.
You might be interested in this article in The Guardian, which reported that AnimalAid, an animal rights group, estimated that 43 million farmed animals in the UK die before the time of slaughter for a variety of reasons, some of which you have mentioned. On their figures, this would be around 4.
The report itself is here, and notes the difficulty in calculating these figures due to the secrecy of the industry. I read your website with a bit of confusion as although you mention that animal lives that are slaughtered to produce meat you have not taken into account as any point the lives of animals that are sacrificed in order to produce vegetables on a level sufficient to sustain current and growing human requirements.
I assume here that you have some basic understanding of what it entails to grow vegetables on a commercial level and the amount of pesticides that are utilized to destroy insect that feed on these plants. Which in turn affects those animals that feed on those insects, In addition to this run off from fertilizer and pesticides adversely affects aquatic life and increased water consumption leads to the destruction of wetlands.
In addition any life form that adversely affects the production of plants utilized as food needs to be eradicated. Learn how your comment data is processed. I just want to bumble along on my own and slowly increase my fitness and how far I can run, rather than committing to joining a club or finding some training buddies, but I had no idea where to go from my current 5K-ish position except keep running further and further which is vague and not very inspiring so it never happened.
So thank you for covering not only the diet and mental side of things but also the absolute nitty gritty basics! I may finally learn to run. There are many reasons for being vegetarian or vegan. But saving animals is a flawed one. The best way to ensure good lives for farmed animals is to buy products that are free range or similarly secure good animal welfare. And to take this to the extreme, if everyone was vegetarian or vegan, the animals would never live at all.
No sheep, cows, pigs or chickens anymore. If everyone is vegan, there would be no more animals being raised for slaughter. That is true. Before humans came along and manipulated the populations of these animals for our food, all these animals existed naturally in the wild.
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